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The following posts have been reprinted in their entirety from posts e-mailed by readers of this website, except that headers, names and locations have been removed. These posts express the opinions and experiences of their authors, and this site publisher makes no representations about them in any way whatsoever. Subject: Great site I just wanted to say that your site and others like it are wonderful internet resources. It confirmed what I thought all along about Amway. Thanks to Amway, I lost probably the best friend I had. My friend is in the service in the Seattle area. (By the way, have you noticed Amway is running rampant in the millitary? It feeds off their fears that they won't be able to get a job when they get out.) We've been friends since we dated briefly in college. He's a college graduate and a trained scientist, so I expected better. My first clue that something was up was when I got an e-mail telling me he was starting his own business, and to let him know if I had money I wanted to save or invest. I had no idea what it was (I thought he was playing the stock market or something), but I told him I was a poor grad student with no money and besides, I don't believe that friends and money mix. That put an end to it, but then the next time he called he started the "what are your dreams" pitch. It must have frustrated him to no end, because I am not and never have been particulary materialistic. I went on about getting a research position and making discoveries that will benefit mankind. Until he decided to be more direct and ask what kind of car I wanted to drive. Of course, I never really thought about it so I said one that would run. At this point he realized he was going down the wrong track with me and asked if I would like to have more money so I could donate it to charity. It's hard to say no to a question like that, so I said yes. Then started the spiel. He got about one minute into it when I stopped him and asked if he got mixed up with Amway. I don't know how I knew, but something told me that's what this was. He got flustered and said yes. I laughed at him and called him a sucker (we have a relationship where putting each other down is expected), and I thought it was over. Then, I went on vacation to Seattle so I could see him. The full court press happened. We went out to dinner with his sponsors - my friend evidently told them about my skepticism, because they kept saying how great Amway was and how they were retiring soon and how Amway did $7 billion in sales. When I said that I was sure it was a great opportunity but I didn't think it was for me, they called me an intellectual snob. I was really offended. The next day in the car my friend had me listen to one of their tapes. I thought it was strange that when he opened his console, it was filled with motivational tapes. He used to listed to music in the car. So, I listened and was really disgusted by what I heard. I'm sure you know the general content. I had never heard such materialistic garbage in my life. What made it worse was it being wrapped in religion. When we got back to his house I was shown the plan. I had some questions that he was unable or didn't want to answer. I told him thanks but no thanks. When I got home, I decided to research Amway on the internet, because my whole experience with it just didn't seem right. It felt like a cult. It turns out I was right. Your site and others like it confirmed my suspicions. I wrote and e-mail to my friend saying I had done some research on the net into Amway I wanted him to take a look at the sites I found. He replied saying thanks, but I'm not looking at them because the anti-Amway sites are all run by people paid by competing companies. I wrote a fairly long e-mail back listing what I found, since he wouldn't take the time to do the research on his own. Things just deteriorated from there. He accused me of back-stabbing him, of not acting like a scientist (Hello! I could say the same about you!) and of being negative and critical. (Yup, scientists are supposed to be critical, buddy!) I haven't really heard from him since. I only hope he gets out before he loses his shirt.

Sorry to bother you but I was wondering what your view of the Excel company is? Unlike Amway(or others), it doesn't make the sales reps buy products, except for a $70 sign up fee. It does have the problem of exponential growth that other companies have. Thanks for reading my letter,

Part II

Thanks for replying to my questions about Excel. It definitely helps to hear different perspectives on an issue. Looking through the web page was informative as well. I became interested in Excel because one of my good friends started selling Excel to his friends and their families, (he actually was recruited by his father), but he definitely isn't a high pressure sales type at all. I think that the idea of selling products to family and friends makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Excel seems to lack some of the disadvantages of a lot of MLMs because it seems that their product actually provides something practical and useful, which Excel touts in its recruitment pitches. They certainly don't mention the problem of exponential growth and only talk about the telecommunications industry growing at a staggering rate over the next few years. Another interesting fact -- the largest categories of the MLM sections in yahoo! are health products and telecommuncations. Thanks and best wishes,

Some one posted a msg using my E-Mail address "**" on your great website yesterday. That is not my story. I do have a very negative story about SCAMWAY, and I might sent it in to you soon. Thanks for removing the msg from ** on your guestbook listing.

Subject: AMWAY INFO

Hi,

I am a fairly new web user and am also an AMWAY Distributor. I have read through various articles on your web pages and although I believe you feel you are doing a great service to those individuals who may be considering getting involved with an MLM, your articles seem to be filled with alot of anger and hate towards alot of people who I would imagine you do not know personally.

In the majority of businesses there are going to be greedy jerks who try to take advantage of others, and "back-stabbing" co-workers who we hate to work with, and what about these great corporations who lay off THOUSANDS of people at a time so they can increase their value. They play all sorts of games such as "retraining for the workforce", "paying severance packages", etc. etc. When in reality, they are just trying to cut costs and put money in their own pockets. After all, isn't that basically what business is all about??? Or have I missed something?

I do not believe AMWAY is perfect by any means. After all, it is made up of human beings not robots.

And yes, the corporation would like the world to believe it is a great company to be involved with (IT IS), but like any company, especially one so large, there are so many factors involved in operating it. In a free enterprise situation, there will be people who get involved and try to take advantage of others. They won't last long. And yes, some people are going to make more money than others (it is definitely true that the effort you put forth will ultimately determine what you make in return).

We live in the greatest country in the world where we are free to live as we would like, yet we have people living generation after generation on welfare. People who DO NOTHING to help the country prosper, they live off of those who work hard.

So, although AMWAY may not be perfect, Dexter Yagers "system" and beliefs have saved tons of marriages, created better parents, taught people how to manage money (something schools and most parents do not seem to educate their children on), and most importantly gives hope that the "average" person can own and succeed at their own business.

I believe in free speech, but if my memory serves me correctly, you spent three weeks "studying" this business. Although this business seems so simple it is actually complex because of our "job mentally" training. Three weeks isn't even enough time to adequately train a new employee never mind learn a whole new business. And I don't know the person you discussed in that article, but our line of sponsership definitely does not discourage the selling of products.

I have been involved in AMWAY for three years and like everything in life there are ups and downs. I worked in large corporations such as The Hartford Insurance Group, was a regional manager for a very large retail chain in California and the Midwest, worked several years for a law firm and also a large manufacturer of air field re-fueling tanks. For the past 6 years my husband and I have owned and operated a successful screenprinting business which we started from nothing and with no knowledge of the industry...just a love of art and creating it. My husband still jokes with people about when we started our business. He says "the first year we just made rags". That's because no manual or classes in the world can give you "hands on training" for your own business. Books and real life are two different things. We did not turn a real profit for 2 years. We basically made enough to cover our expenses (most of the time, not always) and occasionlly made a little extra. And we worked our tails off day after day, night after night that whole time and have had two children during that time and another last year. It's not easy, in fact it has been very hard.

My point in telling you about myself and to try to explain I am not some naive person who is "sucked in" by the AMWAY dream. I researched the business and understood that it is not a "free ride to freedom". But where else in the world can you find more positive people who are working towards making themselves a better person in so many areas of their life?

Reading through your page of quotes from the DeVos and VanAndel's, a person who is not familiar with AMWAY or these two families might take your analyges verbatum, but I feel your "rewording" is actually twisting what the articles are saying.

And I am curious to know what you do for a living. You seem to be spending alot of time trying to put down a company that has been around for 38 years and has helped so many people.

It seems we have so many more important ecological, economical and political issues at hand that your great energy could be quite a value to. But it seems your business and to "protect" people from getting into business for themselves and making their own decisions based on their own experiences not one individuals limited experiences.

I do not remember hearing anything about E-Biz or all the great new changes going on now. Do you really believe their is nothing good at all about what the company is doing for business and the economy?

If AMWAY was such a terrible company with terrible people who are trying to take advantage of all of us "stupid" humans, why is it still flourishing after 37+ years and why is it that you feel people are not adult or smart enough to make their own decision about whether or not they get involved or stay involved? After all, it is a persons free choice to get in and to get out.

Well, I would imagine you would not publish my e-mail because it goes against your beliefs, but I would hope that you could read it objectively and maybe stop for a moment and think about what you really hope to get out of spending so much of your energy so negatively.

Good luck to you.

P.S. In case you thinking I wrote this because we are "racking in the bucks, we are not direct yet, but are still working on it. We are exactly where we should be based on the time and effort we put into the business. And more importantly, are happily married and working together towards our future.

Part II

Subject: Addt'l Thoughts

Sorry to take up more space, but one thing I did fail to mention in my previous e-mail was regarding the various organizations. I note that many of the e-mails on your page were regarding WWDB or the Scwartz organiation (I've never even heard of) The organization I am in does not "practice" the type of behavior described in those e-mails.

I feel terrible when people treat people so bad, but there's always two sides to a story.........

Have you heard of this new venture? It sounds like another Amway; only 60% of their retail costs goes to the various distributors or alike down the line.

I was approached by an old friend and I need to get her out of this organization. Thanks,

Subject: Equinox International

Because of ice storms, I was stuck on a 737 trying to get from Baltimore to Cleveland on January 14. For the four hours we were confined to this aircraft I engaged in converstion with my seatmate. After describing my work (I'm a Trainng Officer at a Department of Veterans Affairs Regional Office), my seatmate told me that his employer was presently looking for experienced trainers.

We exchanged information and I was surprised to receive a call from him on Jan. 21. His business card had identified him as:

***

He wanted to arrange an interview for me with a local manager with whom he had discussed my training experience. I arranged to meet with **, at 1:00 PM on 1-25-99.

Because Mr. ** card showed a web address for www.equinoxinternational.com, I checked out the wepage for inforamtion on the parent company and discovered that it was a multi-level marketing enterprise. On the morning of the interview, I talked to ** to insure that the interview was to discuss a position in training with the company and not a front for recruitment as a sales representative. ** assured me that the position was one in training, not sales.

I have just returned from my "interview". ** lied.

I arrived at 1:00 PM and was told that the "corporate overview" presentation was not scheduled until 2:30 PM. After some insistent questioning on my part, a pleasant, but intense young lady named Sarah, informed me that:

• *** was out of town
• Training was done only by successful sales managers
• Sales manager is a position attained by a sales representative who sold certain dollar amounts of the company's products and recruited a specific number of new sales representatives

Essentially, there were no training positions being filled, only entry level sales positions.

I was gone by 1:30 PM. Bait-and-switch is just as unethical as a recruitment technique as it is when used and an advertising come-on.

Equinox International hires only sales representatives, no matter what any of their employees may tell you.

[Actually, Equinox doesn't HIRE anyone (except maybe the receptionist). You pay dearly for the privilege of being affiliated with them.]

I was a struggling computer technician in Canada when they called and said, "We'd like to show you a business oppurtunity...." We were getting a welfare supplement from the government. Of course, the first thing I did was check the web for info and found many sites like this. I gathered as much material as I could (from BOTH sides of the coin) and my conclusions are thus:

Savings:

Some items are cheaper, some are more expensive, some about the same...just like comparing prices between Sears, K-Mart, and the Bay. Except now, I can get those articles shipped to my door with a 100% money back guarantee.

Tools Scam:

The tools BUSINESS makes money. It's a BUSINESS. Designed to make money as any other business. It took Dexter Yager a long time to reach Diamond Distributor, as it did for many of the other early Diamonds. Now, people like the Combdens, the Days, and many many others are reaching the same level inside of 5 years....results speak for themselves. And the Diamonds, themselves, make money from the tools. If you had a restaurant, and bought 500 cases of Coke, would you not expect a price break? I would. Sears buys thousands of pairs of Reboks at a time, at wholesale, and makes money selling to you at retail...how dare they make money like that!

Cult:

According to my figures, close to 60 distributors achieved the level of Diamond in 1998. A cult that pumps out a millionaire every 5 days.....hmmm.

Dropout Rate:

I entered college in 1981, spent thousands of dollars on books and tools for my course....but then I quit. Perhaps you guys should put up a website about the dangers of colleges and universities. They are a scam. They give the impression that you can graduate and get a good paying 9-5 job, from which you will never be laid off and retire from comfortably in 45 years. And it costs a lot more money than tools. People quit all kinds of things. It's human nature to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of all but ourselves. "It couldn't possibly be our fault."

After 8 months in Amway, we are close to Direct level. We are off welfare. We are seeing results from our hard efforts. My wife has come home from her minimum wage job (cleaning toilets at Proctor and Gamble). Results speak for themselves.

Part II

you wrote:

><<Some items are cheaper, some are more expensive, some about the >same...just like comparing prices between Sears, K-Mart, and the Bay. >Except now, I can get those articles shipped to my door with a 100% >money >back guarantee. >>> > >This is standard distributor drivel. I've recited it many times myself >(without the reference to the Bay, since I'm in the US and not Canada). >But you know what? While technically true, it is extremely misleading and >deceptive. The reality is, the majority of items you can purchase from >Amway are significantly more expensive, even at "wholesale" cost, than >comparable competitive products. When I finally quit buying products, I >immediately saved about $200 per month on basics like shampoo, soap, >cleaning products, etc. When you add in the hugely overpriced vitamins >and supplements, the savings were increased by another $50-75. Unbiased >consumer studies indicate pretty clearly that Amway products on the >average -- none of this "some are less, some are more" stuff -- cost 40% >more than competitive products. So much for the first means of income.

My wife's own comparisons:

SA-8 = 100 loads @ 28 CAN Sunlight = 25 loads @ 10 CAN...you do the math.

One liter Amway shampoo for family of 5 lasts us 6 months @ $19.44 CAN 6 half liter bottles of name brand @ $4.99 CAN during the same period.

Read the lable...they say concentrated. As are most of Amway's core products.

[He's doing just what Amway distributors always do -- pointing our a handful of products which may be less expensive and trying to prove that therefore you can save money buying Amway brand. It's just not true.]

><<The tools BUSINESS makes money. It's a BUSINESS. Designed to make >money >as any other business. >>

> >Excuse me, it's NOT the same as any other business. When you, as a >consumer, go into a store and purchase an item -- a can of Coke, a book, >a movie, a tape, an article of clothing, whatever -- you KNOW that they >are in business to make money. It's an "arm's-length transaction." The >situation becomes very different when people you've been taught to trust >implicity lie about it, say, "oh, no, nobody makes money on the tapes.

It's never been implied to me, nor outright stated that the tools do not make money for upline. I assumed that to be the case from day one and my upline confirmed it.

>It's obvious you don't know what the word "cult" means.

Perhaps you could enlighten me?

>the impression that you can graduate and get a good paying 9-5 job, from >which you will never be laid off and retire from comfortably in 45 >years. >And it costs a lot more money than tools>> > >

This is ridiculous. No reputable college or university promises anything >except that if you pay your money, go to class, do your work, you'll >graduate with a degree. After that it's up to you to do something with >it. And a college education MAY cost more than tools -- that is debatable

I see. Then what is the reason for placement statistics published by every major (and minor) college and university? In fact, the very college I went to (and probably many others) hire recent graduates to inflate those statistics. You see, colleges and universities are businesses, too. No one wants to attend an establishment of higher learning with a 40% placement rate...Can I prove this? Having graduated at the top of my class, I was hired as an instructor for the following year...only to be replaced by one of my students two years later. In fact, no less than 5 out of 15 graduates were hired back...giving the second class a 100% placement rate instead of 66%...Ethical?

Cost of College:

2 years @ $8500 CAN per year plus accomodations plus transportation plus books and equipment...about $12,000 per year or $1000/month.

Cost of Amway tools:

SOT & BOM invoice has never been more that $50 US (about $75 CAN) And we have our own Canadian functions @ $25 CAN We were taught to pack our own food and we split on motels at 2 day functions. The most we have ever spent in any one month is about $250 CAN. Not even close, Ruth.

><<After 8 months in Amway, we are close to Direct level. We are off >welfare. >We are seeing results from our hard efforts. My wife has come home from >her >minimum wage job>>

> >I hope you continue to see results from your hard efforts, and that your >conscience will lead you to seek those results without misleading or >defrauding people.

I have never mislead or defrauded anyone. I actively promote prospects to do their own price comparison/research. I state approximate costs of tools and the system at every follow-up (backed up by invoices). My wife shows her own research in the cost efficiency of Amway's concentrated products. We ALWAYS state that the system is optional and also invite the prospect to research the length of time/effort between a non-system and system Amway business...just as I did.

> ><<Results speak >for themselves. >>> > >Really? Does that mean that, since he's still in charge in Iraq, Saddam >Hussein must be a moral ethical guy? Your reasoning here, as elsewhere in >your post, is fallacious. If your "analysis" of the business is any >indication of your critical thinking skills, it's no wonder you were >"struggling" as a computer technician.

I'm not sure exactly what Saddam has to do with this. And my reasoning is completely valid. Also, your last statement in the above paragraph has completely removed any and all credibility from the opinions expressed on your site for the following reason: You have jumped to the conclusion that my critical thinking skills have something to do with my "struggling" as a computer technician. How many other opinions have you arrived at without all the pertinent information? The high tech business is full of retailers that sell substandard equipment at inflated prices, overcharge for service when little or no work is actually done. That's not my style.Computer equipment is becoming so reliable that if it works for a week, it will work forever. My skills are becoming obsolete. Ruth, there are unethical people in ANY business field. I've seen websites with destructive Java scripts and automatic virus downloads. Should I be stereotypical and assume your site has them, too? Will my browser crash on the next link from your site? I was told at the beginning that "The great thing about Amway is that anybody can do it....and the worst thing about Amway is that..anybody can do it." Yes, there are unethical people in Amway. To deny that would be foolish. But to stereotype ALL Amway distributors as unethical is equally foolish.

Thank you in advance for any help that you can give me.

I just read Jeff and Joni Probandt's site, and another by Dave and Rose Roberts. I have been an Amway distributor for a few years. My wife and I were initially sponsored by my brother, he was sponsored by an old Navy buddy, John Minaudo. This old Navy buddy got in the business in the middle 70's and is now Diamond. I would later learn that a Diamond is really just a lump of coal. (I'll try to make this short) I sensed a certain "snobbery" about some of these people but attributed it to their years of struggle. I later learned it was a disdain brought on by scamming someone. A little psychology; a mugger develops a contempt for his victims so he can commit the robbery, justify it in his tiny conscience. I saw the same contempt from my upline. John Minaudo our first upline diamond made some inappropiate comments to my wife. If I had heard them at the time, I would have kicked his ass.

We instead transferred our sponsorship from my brother and his sponsor, John Minaudo, to some Amway folks we had met quite by accident. To cut this short, Minaudo was a Gooch diamond. Our new sponsors were under diamonds Stewart,Hellinghausen and Parks. Some of our upline and cross upline were the same as Probandt's. I always had a tickling feeling that we weren't seeing the whole picture, I just couldn't commit to the "system" wholeheart. After reading Probandt's site I felt like a prisoner released. There are good, decent people in this business, all below Direct level. Three of our upline directs have quit recently, Stewart's wife stopped showing up on tape or in person. Yet we were admonished for asking innocent questions about these people. I smelled something rotten but I let the system suspend my common sense. Yesterday I told our sponsor's wife to cut us out of any and all "system" materials and events. I still want to believe that the company is decent but I'm getting the creeping doubts about it also. I have just awakened from a nightmare. My doubts were correct. It is sad.

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