Read Previous Posts Read Next Posts

The following posts have been reprinted in their entirety from posts e-mailed by readers of this website, except that headers, names and locations have been removed. These posts express the opinions and experiences of their authors, and this site publisher makes no representations about them in any way whatsoever. Quixtar is open now, so you can list who Amway's evil coconspirators are. Sincerely, I just have one question, are you or anyone connected to this website an amway or Quixtar independent business owner? Because I've been in the business for 4 years, and haven't encountered what you talk about on this website. And yes, I'm active (I buy my own products, go to functions, and use the system).

---

Re: Amway

I wanted to write you and tell you how right on your book was. [Amway Motivational Organizations: Behind the Smoke and Mirrors.] It was outstanding! It is must reading for every Amway distributor. I know, I lived it.

At the same time, I wanted to tell you how sorry I feel for the many people who have written you complaining about your information against Amway. I know, I was saying the same things they are, until I found out the truth.

The simple truth is, the lifestyles they see and edify are simply not attainable by them through the Amway Sales & Marketing Plan. My proof? Your upline didn't do it that way either. It is clear from reading the distributor email that distributors are getting to know where the real money comes from and yet they turn around and recruit others under false pretenses. If they were honest, they would tell recruits we are in the training and motivational business and we use Amway as a recruitment mechanism for the system. They would tell the prospect, you will make very little money in Amway after taxes, even at the diamond level, but you can make lots of money on the training and motivation side of it. They would tell the prospect there is no written contract about the "System" and if your upline takes your money, you can't take it to court because of the BSMAA. And even if you take it to arbitration, your upline can make up any rules they want because nothing is in writing. They would also tell you that retailing in your Amway business is mandatory, and if you do not have 10 customers or 50 PV in sales each month and pay or receive bonuses, you are assuming a huge legal liability and taking the risk of federal prosecution for illegal pyramiding (see FTC case filed last month against Equinox among the many others filed at the State level against other MLM's). They would also tell you the IRS will prosecute you if you deduct tools, seminars, mileage, etc as business expenses from your income taxes if you cannot prove it actually increased your retail sales to non-distributor down-lines (see the several IRS vs Amway Distributor cases). They would also tell you that omitting key pieces of information like these points, is just as bad as outright cheating and lying, under various fraud laws.

I could go on and on, but my point is this. People have a right to make a choice to do Amway. Unfortunately, many hard working honest distributors who are selling this concept have no clue what is going on, so how could they articulate it to a prospect? I also find it interesting the "all knowing" angered distributors who berate your motives in emails are the same people who deceive prospects by not mentioning the things I speak to in the last paragraph, and in short take away the prospects right to choose freely. They translate their good feelings and the hope they have been given from attending motivational sessions as "being in a good and thriving business". My experience and thousands of others - tells me differently.

Thanks for the needed expose about what large portions of Amway is really all about. It is people like you, who have the courage and altruism for their fellow man who will be heard and standing in the end. An Amway Senior Rules Official once told me, "the truth always has a way of coming out in the end". Thanks to efforts such as your book, the many web sites, and the European Former Amway Distributors Organization (ASDAM - with 5,000 members and growing), I would say he was right.

Former Direct Distributor

---

Re: Quixtar

Hi,I found your site trying to get to Quixtar,its been an interesting read. I have been tossing around the idea of being an IBO and seeking my fame and fortune providing my number to people. You certainly have a strong viewpoint and I'm thinking that you must have really been burnt by these 2 families,I find my self becoming more and more jaded with every passing day,although I've never had any dealings with Amway or any of the others that are mentioned on your page. In fact I don't even know what MLM stands for,I've thought up a couple but I'm sure that it can't be any of these:'Making Lotsa Money' or maybe closer to the mark,'Minions Losing Millions'. Yea I know 10,000 comedians out of work and................ Anyway I was rather interested in trying to see if this Quixtar might not be the vehicle to transition into retirement with. One of my oldest friends is the one that suggested it and I was about 50% convinced that there might be something to it,but most of the things that you talked about resonated off of some of the concerns and questions that were going around in my head.

The books and tapes and such that you talked about were one of the foremost concerns I had because my friend keeps pushing them and saying that they are indispensable,well I haven't bought any of them,but he keeps trying.

The comments that you made about the false friendship certainly struck a cord and as I mentioned that I am becoming jaded well it certainly is a result of that phenomenon,something that seems to be running rampant in our society,from top to bottom. And I don't see many ways to avoid it,but being financially secure would go a long way to be sheltered against it and the internet and a good way to make some money would be an ideal way to maintain that anonymity.

Well I've gone on long enough,thanks for your views and opinions,I'll bookmark your site and check in now and again and if I run into something interesting I'll pass it along. Hang in there and don't hesitate to tell me about any sure fire ways to make enough to live comfortably,drinking ice tea and drowning worms.

For the life of me, can't understand anyone who spends so much time and energy whining and moaning. Let people make up their own minds, meanwhile, admit you're a loser, have never succeeded in anything you've attempted to do, never will, and go get a life!

First of all I would like to implore anyone who is considering Equinox International as a source of income or has just started with the company to read Rob Styler's book "Spellbound" which I believe you can order from the "book corner" section of this web-site. Among the publications and articles that I have found while researching this company, this is by far the most thorough, chilling, and objective personal account of what Equinox and Bill Gouldd are all about.

Second, I would like to personally attest to the unbelievable emotional pain that can result from mere association with this company. If you are curious about this company because of the interest or involvement of someone close to you, all I can say to you is: Act immediately! Flood them with information regarding the FTC suit, Bill Gouldd's criminal record, articles, testimonials from ex-reps, and statistics. If this person is truly important to you, it is your responsibility to supply the truth...no matter what outcome or reaction you might fear. I will not mince words. This is truly a cult. And though many realize what it is all about much later in their career (read: debt) often pride, fear, and over-commitment make self-extrication extremely painful.

Its sad to say, but odds are if this doesn't work, you need prepare yourself for a rhetoric of "Equispeak" from: "Its God's will" (this one especially gets to me as I am a Christian. Especially my favorite quote from B. Gouldd, "God chose us." For what Bill? I've searched the New Testament for a reference to any need like: "saving the world's enviornment and then retiring in two years" and, although I'm only halfway through 2nd Peter, I've come up short.) to "these are the world's finest products" (in fact, the vast majority of Equinox products are manufactured by other companies [read: real manufacturers] for many resellers just like Equinox.) to "the media and the government are corrupted liars bent on destroying the anyone successful that they don't like" (Classic "us and them" indoctrination.) to "We are helping people. That can't be wrong." (Published success ratios completely destroy that theory. Hint: don't look for them in Equinox literature.). If this, indeed, is what you find yourself faced with, woe to you. I'm sorry but there is an only slightly less than 100% chance that you are sooner or later to be faced with the emotional and financial ruin of the person you once knew. I am keeping all of you, and those involved, in my prayers.

Finally, an update for any poor souls who have been artfully sold on the Equinox lie: A hearing was scheduled for today Sept. 1st and tomorrow Sept. 2nd. in the FTC law suit against Equinox International, Inc. and Bill Gouldd. As of now, I have not been able to acquire any information about today's proceedings but I do know that Equinox has announced that it will not be paying any bonuses to any of its "employees." until the suit is resolved.

I wish you all the best, and will be back with any updates.

Hi,

As I have heard from my friends in USA involved in MLM involved there. They are regularly insisting me to get myself registered in Amway in India as they say will soon be converted into Quixtar. Is this right?

How far this will be benificial in Indian context? If I get registered in Amway will this be only required for me to sponser somebody outof india or will that require any international IBO#?

How will I get the benifit from Online shopping in dollars or Rupees?

Please do the needful.

what is your point? amway and quixtar are like any kind of business, it has to be worked to be profitable. working for someone else is not free enterprise.i intend to keep my mlm, thank you very much!

hi, i am writing to you today because i just viewed and read your website. several days ago, (prior to september 1st), i played golf and while on the golf course, one of the people i was playing golf with, told me about quixtar. they were very excited to be telling me about it. it got me sort of interested. more curious than anything. however, later that same afternoon, another friend of mine, stopped by my house to tell me about this latest adventure he had signed up for. you guessed it. Quixtar. now i ask you this. if this business does not exist until sept. 1st. how were these 2 people able to sign up to be an independent business owner in quixtar. the first person i mentioned stated he became an IBO back in July of 99. the second person i mentioned stated he became an IBO 3 weeks prior to telling me about it. (the first part of august). even before september 1st, i was able to gain access to his website via a registration number. the website is www.thefutureof business.com and the registration number is *. how can a company that does not exist, put these websites up and promote a business that did not exist.

i do want to point out that both of my friends who have signed up for quixtar IBO do not know each other.

secondly, i go to my search engine (lycos.com) and i type in quixtar and i bring up many different websites concerning quixtar. however, over half of them, i cannot gain access to. either they are password protected or else SOMEONE has forced them off the internet because the pages do not exist. I cannot help but wonder, is this one of the largest Scams in existence today and Quixtar is getting away with it because of the Amway name???

this is how i was approached with the business. IBM and Microsoft are sponsoring Quixtar. Quixtar is developed by Amyway Corp. They hold meetings every other thursday night in the Sheraton hotel here in **. (I have no idea who "they" are). I do know that a man named Dave signed both of these people up at different times and at different meetings. Neither of my friends know each other. My friend from the golf course stated he paid 99 dollars to become an IBO and he said after september 1st the price would go up but he did not know how much. My second friend, stated he paid 112 dollars to become an IBO and the price would go up after september 1st but he did not know how much. in additon, he recieved 40 dollars worth of products, so in his reality, it only cost him 72 dollars to become an IBO. he did not state what type of products he recieved. I was invited to attend a meeting on tuesday night thru my golf buddy, however, i was unable to attend the meeting as they are in the evenings and i am unavailable in the evenings.

My second friend, he stated that he and his girlfriend, were to go to ** on Labor day weekend for a huge convention "they" are holding, and he said, "we are going to be invited up on stage to be presented with "something" because of "something" we did). he was not for sure what it was he did or what it is he is supposed to be presented with. He is assuming they are being "reconized" because in 3 weeks they "signed" up 7 people to become IBO's in quixtar.

After he left from our visit, i am still left with two nagging questions. How can someone become an Independent Business Owner in a business that does not exist? and How can Amway pull of such a nationwide SCAM and sooooo many everyday people fall for it and still get away with it legally? Even if Quixtar is a ligitimate company now that September 1st has arrived, how can they put out legally a pyramid business? Ooops, I guess that makes 3 nagging questions.

A few days ago, a friend of mine came over with a video tape ( prior to Sept. 1, 1999), she wanted me to watch it, and she would be back in a few minutes, she explained a little bit about it to me. When she came back I told her that I found it interesting and that I made a copy so I can show my husband. Funny when I think about it after reading about Amway and the scams with the tapes and the rallies etc., she told me this is all I can tell you. But tonight there is a meeting, and you and I both with learn about this together, you don't have to pay anything, you and your husband can come as our guest. Well I couldn't make it that night, but I called her later that evening and she filled me in on what she could. Now after her talking to me earlier in the day, it took me back to sometime earlier in the year when another friend of mine had talked about this big internet thing that was suppose to start on Sept 1, 1999. She wasn't impressed and figured it was a scam. Kudos to her! She is a smart lady... Anyway, my point is this, I have found many sites out there promoting Quixtar, registering people and such. My friend did sign up and has her IBO# but I don't think she realizes that her and her husband have bought into Amway, and not Quixtar, since Quixtar wasn't official until 9/1/99. They paid 105.00 for their kit, plus another 24.00 for business cards that have their IBO number on it. I am going to call her this morning and let her know what I have found out, and ask her if she was aware of Amway being indirectly involved in this. And to let her know that I want to cancel the meeting with the gentlemen that are sponsoring her and her husband. I have told my husband repeatedly that if something sounds to good to be true, then it probably is. A quick note to add. One of the big clinchers for her was that IBM and Microsoft bought into the company, that is what she was told. Wait til she finds out that Microsoft didn't.

Thanks for having such an informative site. I had already had my doubts about this new venture, and your site, your viewers and their forsight into Amway, gave more stability to my decision.

I was an Amway Distributor over 10 years ago and got out for some of the reasons you have identified on your site. Over zealous guys like your "Larry," who weren't quite sure what they were doing, and an unethical upline member (who happened to be a relative) led my wife and I to leave. But I watched Amway's continued growth for over a decade and I've never seen or heard of a valid complaint with the company that they did not resolve to a customer or distributors satisfaction. For a company of their size (in terms of sales), that is unheard of.

I'm sorry you have had such a negative experience that you have seen fit to develop a site full of so many lies, 1/2 truths, and personal attacks. You're quite an unforgiving person. Don Storms is a phenomenal individual. I'll bet Trudeau is very thankful someone is giving him a second chance. I've used some of his material and found it to be very useful. I'm not in the Storm's organization, nor would I have ever gotten involved in Trudeau's hokey MLM scam.

I too have met an unethical Diamond (in another organization). Big deal. Amway (and now Quixtar) distributors are independent contractors, so there's not much control, unless they catch them violating rules, and then they deal with them appropriately-including terminating the relationship.

I only wish I had "cult" control over my group. Then maybe some of the complainers would get off their butt and get to work. Ruth can say anything she wants. I've seen too much to know that whatever her book says is not the norm.

Your quotes from the SPAM you have received are ludicrous. Why would you even bother with this kind of garbage? Is this something your doctor told you to do to relieve your anger? It's only day 2 of the Quixtar opening and you should have plenty of things to slam them about now. The response has been so much larger than they imagined that the site has been virtually swamped. Apparently the guys they hired (IBM & Microsoft) didn't think big enough. So what. Hopefully this will infuriate all the get-rich-quick types and they'll quit before they smear Quixtar's name with their SPAMMING and hokey websites.

If this is all the dirt you can round up, it's pretty weak-especially considering the age and size of the company and the fact that there are almost no entry conditions to becoming a distributor. Again, I apologize for your bad experience (whatever it was). I'm just lowly 4000, but this business generates enough cash for my wife to stay home with our kids and for us to live in an extremely nice (and expensive) community. (And I don't make any money off tapes and they don't ask me to do any speaking tours.) I also apologize for the tone of this letter. You're obviously a sharp guy. But this whole thing seems like such a waste of energy. You'd be better off using Larry's IBO # and getting involved.

I heard a beep on my computer. I've either "broken into" the Quixtar site or it's telling me the server is unavailable. Either way, I've been making money via Amway and Quixtar this whole time. Think about that. And I won't be signing up as an affiliate and selling products for any company. (What a goofy idea.) You've really missed the point. Go see someone that is successful in this business (at the Emerald or above level) and sit down with them and find out the truth about how (and why) this works.

Your e-mail introduction is very threatening! " ... if you send spam your ISP account will be terminated." I did not realize that you also represented all ISPs and guaranteed their actions. It is fortunate that you escaped mlms so that you now have such a calm peaceful existence that it shows in your writing!! You can find a small group of people in any large organization that are far from perfect. Does that make their entire venture bad? Does it make yours bad. You should find something that you're positive about (if anything) and create a website to promote what you do believe in rather than wasting energy badmouthing something which you obviously don't get!

May you obtain peace and harmony in your life,

Hi! I find your MLM Survivors web page very useful and informative. Let me tell you why I'm writing and you may want to edit my text to add to your site.

1. Quixtar Live 9/1/99? The "new" company, Quixtar, which should actually be called "Amway II", crashed several times on opening day because their computer system couldn't handle the large volume of traffic. Well, duh! What did they expect on opening day? They had sooooo much internal publicity with their one million U.S. and Canadian IBO's (including me), they should have made sure that their network could handle the traffic--not to mention the hundreds of new clients who tried to log on an actually BUY something. Can you say "Snake Oil Salesman" ???????????

By the way, today is 9/2/99 and the site is still crashing. How's that for credibility???? Yes, I'm still an IBO and yes, I still am promoting the new E-Commerce venture, but I'm a little annoyed because I want to order stuff and cannot!

2. Amvox Voice Mail Services I cancelled my Amvox system yesterday and told my upline to use email now. I felt that $20 a month with only $3 PV was not worth the 5 or so voice mail messages I get almost daily that have very little to do with the business. I have complained to my upline many times in the past that I do NOT appreciate receiving voice mail messages from fellow IBOs (usually high up the "totem pole" like Dexter Yeager) who push their Religious Right and socially conservative politics down our throats! I had voiced my opinion many times that the wealthy Diamonds and above should keep politics and religion OUT OF THE BUSINESS since it has nothing to do with building a business. Even atheists and singles can have a business of their own but uplines "canned" responses have always been the same. "You can delete the messages you don't agree with".

Bull#@%t !!!!! Many people new to the business world will not understand that this isn't Amway talking but narrow-minded bigots who mix their political agendas with the Amway Business! No wonder people complain that Amway is a cult. I never thought it is but I can see why people are very negative to the whole MLM concept, when this goes on.

Anyway, my final voice mail message last night was a download from Yeager. It was a four-minute speech from a fellow Christian Conservative who did nothing but bash President Clinton! Now what does THAT have to do with our business?

I'm glad these people are financially successful enough to give thousands of dollars to their favorite charities. I just wish they wouldn't promote them as being part of the "business culture". I also wish that Amway Corporation would ask these so-called leaders to stop it. However, I also realize that since Amway is a private corporation and its owners give MILLIONS of dollars to Christian charities, they won't any time soon ask their biggest producers to stop promoting Christian Conservative Values to their downlines. Afterall, you don't want to piss off the big producers, they may quit Amway to start their own company -- OOPS, DeVos and Van Andel did that already when they quit Nutrilite and started Amway. Hmmm, could they be afraid of history repeating itself?

Well, keep up the great work and look forward to reading more great information on your Web site as time goes on and more people experience Quixtar.

Quixtar IBO (for the time being)

P.S. I don't "plug into the system" and buy books, tapes, and attend seminars, so I no longer get upline support. Imagine that?

I accidentally stumbled upon your site and decided to look through it. Unfortunatly, I feel it's a shame to see so much time and energy wasted here. It's 1999, stop and take a look at the world around us. So much anger, hate, back-stabbing. If we just took half of the energy spent on stuff like this and channeled it into something positive! Instead of being an MLM survivor and wasting precious time on condeming and critizing what people might try to do in life to possibly get ahead, why not help people that really need it. Help survivors of child abuse, poverty, crime, hate, natural disasters, etc.... I'm not condeming or promoting MLM's, but, if someone is trying to make their life better, or thinks that there's got be be a better way, let them be. Advise is one thing, too much of it is another. I've been on both sides of the track. And to be honest with you, I've seen more corruption from the "Big" Corporations (from retail to banking) than from what I've seen written here. I find it hard to believe these people cry about how they were scammed and taken in by MLM's. Granted, there are some shady ones out there! But do you think that this isn't happening on a daily basis. What about your grocer who marks-up an item just to put it on sale, or that banker who will get you a good rate, for a resonable price, or the car sales man giving you his best, rock bottom deal. I dont have the answer, if so, I'd be a millionaire by now, but I do believe that everyone has a right to try and also must investigate all sides before taking an venture. Just like you comparison shop at home, you should also in any business adventure and also know your limits (personally & financially).

have you been able to get on this so called miracle's web site yet? quixtar.com was to be live as of sept.1 and i haven't been able to get on to see it. looks like all those "big partners" don't have it all put together yet. or maybe, i just can't get to their website for some reason. just checking.

I am a quixtar representative. I am quite the as of today, we are still unable to log on to the site.

They have been telling us in meetings the the system was tested with one million systems logging in at the same micro-second, ordering the same product and that the system never even slows down. Right.

After all of the hype on their 9.1.99 start, when they were not on-line, they sent a message via Amvox voice mail that they were going to be logging on "some time" during the day so that not all of the IBO's would log on at the same time and blow up the system. So, if their testing was so successful, what would be the problem?

I can understand a glitch in a system where so many people might be logging in at the same time, but it is Amway's lack of honesty about the situation that pisses me off.

Just thought you would like to know about this.

To Whom It May Concern: My wife and I became involved in Amway several years ago, and still hold a membership. We still like the products. I understand why so many people are so upset with the Amway business. As I said we were very involved, we bought , tapes, books, attened all the functions, what ever our upline told us to do we did. We chased the dream as fast as we could run. We developed what we considered to be loving friendships with our upline and the people around us, which we had to drive 4hrs one way just to be around them. After about a year of working very hard, my mother-in-law lost her leg and almost died as a result from her illness. Of course we slowed down as far as Amway went, to help our family. Durring the course of her illness and 3 month stay in the hospitol, not one of our so called loving friends (upline) called to check on her or to see if we needed anything. We were great people as long as we were working the Amway dream, but as soon as we slowed, we were less in their eyes.In the short time, that we were working we spent over $10,000 dollars doing what we were told we had to do to be sucessful. I personally believe that we were tought wrong from the very start and on top of that every time we would get comfortable with a new idea, the next week we were instructed by our upline to forget that and do this.. I`m not so sure thal all MLM plans are as bad as Amway, or call it what ever you want to these days. I learned alot from my Amway venture, I believe that God leads you down a path and that there is a reason for it, but I sure wish it hadn`t cost so much, not only the money but the faith and trust that you lose in people along the way. Well i`ve taken up enough of you time, but it sure was nice to have a sounding board. Thank You Very Much

Well, just for grins I decided to check out the Quixtar site. Typed in the URL, waited eons, didn't get on. Looks like they have a super-slow server.

As usual, I'm quite underwhelmed -- they overpromised and failed to deliver.

I have recently been approached by a friend who claims Quixtar will make me rich. It feels too good to be true, as I have always been taught to be skeptical of pyramid schemes. please tell me your thoughts on Quixtar.

I will convey the information contained in the site to my friend. Hopefully, she will be able to understand more about MLM (pyramid) schemes. Perhaps, she can make an informed decision, cut her losses, and get out.

I believe that a possible objective of MLM schemes is to get their "distributors" so emotionally hooked that they develop a sense of "patriotism" and intense loyalty to the company and its "mission." Over time, these "indoctrinated" people develop a tremendous personal, financial, and emotional (psychological) investment in the MLM. These IBO's might rationalize that they cannot leave the organization; after all, they have so much invested! As such, they continue to make repeated "investments" in what they believe to be a "great financial opportunity" and become deeper in debt...financially and emotionally.

The MLM organization knows that once they capture a IBO's emotions and passions, a deep sense of loyalty (and dependency) will follow. Thus, the MLM maintains control of the IBO and reaps profits on purchases of motivational tools, seminars, retreats, and so forth...which is the true objective! Profits on product sales are incidental to the true focus.

In closing, I hope that others who view the MLM Survivor's page will gain insight and share their awareness with others. In so doing, perhaps they can save a friend from financial (and family ) devastation.

Take care,

Sorry to read about all these less-than-positive experiences. I actually heard about your site from a couple that I was sitting down with to register as a new IBO in Quixtar. Well, I won't be working with them anytime soon.

I'm one of those guys your contributors would shoot arrows at. I am in the Amway business, and have now expanded to the Quixtar business. Also, I am in WWDB, and am 2 deep from Greg Duncan (“Mr. Amway as one of your posted email messages refers to. And…I am personally sponsored by Jay Van Andel's (founder of Amway) nephew. So I guess I REALLY am a bad guy! And to top it off, I have sponsored/registered multiple, multiple people.

I would ask you and your contributors this: Did you show the business model to at least 10 potential partners, or sponsor 2 new businesses a month for 12 consecutive months? If the answer is no, I might be upset too. But really, don't beat up a business too badly, simply because you chose not to perform. Finally, what business are you excelling at now instead, which costs less to run than the price of tools we use?

I actually wish all your contributors and yourself were downline from me. I love your passion, and promise you that working with my wife and I would have been a positive experience for you.

In fact, we're going to a meeting tonite with 3 new potential and interested IBOs. I hope they can survive the “Cult Meeting.”

I am currently an Amway/Quixtar IBO, and have been for 4 years. After reading a couple of your pages regarding the money making from the "system", you have sparked my curiosity. You claim that direct distributors and above make income from selling tapes, books and function tickets. I will definitely check upline for the truth about this claim.

However, I am concerned about the various e-mails I have read from former distributors. While there are many of them who are disillusioned about not making money, how many of them actually spent 15 hours or more a week building their business to a successful level. I'm curious how an emerald could lose everything he owned, and blame Amway for that - His was a one line statement with no background as to what happened. Also, you thrash Amway and its "system", but don't talk about the thousands of other mlm's out there which have come and gone. Why is it that Amway has built itself into one of the largest distribution companies in North America, has been around for over 40 years, and is still the best money making opportunity for people who want to work at it. I have no disillusions why I'm not a direct. I haven't put the effort into building my business. However I have seen people who have put in the time, and they have succeeded.

Those people who speak about brainwashing etc., the functions I have attended usually have various speakers to help motivate IBO's, Diamonds who have achieved success by sharing their stories, which seem to me, may spark a common thread for someone to make a decision to build their own business. If they feel like they are being brainwashed, then don't listen to that particular message. If you are uncomfortable about religion, go for a walk. Not everything or all topics at a function will interest everyone. But if you hear just one thing that helps you to (1) develop your business, or (2) helps you in your current career or personal life, then isn't it worth attending the function, especially at a low cost (depending on where you have travelled from). I have attended many functions back east, where I have travelled from Vancouver, B.C.. Some have been expensive but I was able to expense those trips for income tax purposes, and I received worthwhile information as well.

I'm interested as to why you are so opposed to Amway? What did they or your upline do to you? There are many organizations within the Amway unbrella. Like many different companies and corporations, there are good people and there are bad, pushy and obnoxious people. That's human nature. Do you criticize religious groups ( Jehovah Witnesses), life insurance salespeople, door to door salespeople, telemarketers, etc, and do you put them in the same vain as Amway IBO's? What do you do for a living? For the most part people who get involved with AMway do so, to make money, develop new friends, want to help people make money, and want to purchase their consumable products at a competitive price. What's wrong with that?

What a loser you are! I am for regulation on the internet. It will keep losers like you from making false claims. Losers are always trying to convince others that they can't win. Meanwhile we winners are showing losers like you that it can be done. The only scam on the internet is you!

To whom it may concern, I find it interesting to note that the author of the above entitiled article, posturing as a mlm-survivor, has revealed little, if any, of his own presonal accomplishments in the mlm arena. What are his/her credentials? The fact that one has been involved in mlm means absolutely nothing, nor should it. One should be judged on their accomplishments. As the author never revealed any accomplishments reached in the mlm industry, I find it difficult to place any credit to any of the opinions expressed. And that is exactly what he is giving. God bless America, for allowing opinions to be expressed. The danger lies when others take those opinions at face value and neglect their responsiblity to research the source of information touted. Any one can discredit any opportunity that is available to those who are willing to go out on faith and pursue them, for it is easier to do nothing, than to rely on faith, and do something.

[And the author of this e-mail obviously didn't read very much. For those of you who want to know my background and where I'm coming from, visit a page that's been on my site since I first uploaded it, at www.mlmsurvivor.com/mystory.htm]

Ah, the bookseller. Now the truth comes out.

Yes, I've seen the lawsuits first hand. "Dexter Yeager forced me to buy these tapes." Never mind the fact that Dexter was so far removed upline he had never been in the same room with this particular individual. You want to see lawsuits on a company this size, check out Ford Motor Company. When they were this size, they had some serious lawsuits, not frivilous whining. And as far as realigning groups, give me a break. Even an idiot doesn't cut his own throat. Maybe you worked for some kind of power freak, but that is not what I have witnessed in my upline-far from it. I have seen groups that I would not want to be affiliated with, but that's not any reflection on Amway. I've even seen an Emerald pass his bonus check around at an Open. If Amway knew that, he would be suspended from doing any more Opens for quite some time. And I really don't believe the "biggest pin wins theory." I know a boy-wonder Double-Diamond in the old IED Organization that got booted for Crosslining. Booted, forever, for Crosslining in other organizations-all of them led by smaller pins (including his Uplines).

It appears to me that you worked for a jerk. Money tends to magnify people's true characters. Obviously this guy did not read enough books or listen to enough tapes, or at least internalize them. But for you to characterize an entire 7-Billion dollar company because of your limited exposure to one organization is grossly unfair. Rarely have I seen anyone work for a Diamond for that length of time (5 years) and that Diamond not help them build a business of their own. Apparently you did work for a jerk. Nevertheless, putting the Quixtar name into your site is still a sleazy way to sell books. "You reap what you sow." You don't know the truth. I know where the money is made and it's not selling tapes or speaking engagements. Did you work for this guy back in the early 70's? There so much money in this business now, we've got people retiring at the Direct level. Ruby's are bringing in $80K. 12 month Directs are getting $18K bonuses, on top of everything else.

You don't want the truth. You want to sell books. The truth would not be good for your book sales. Again I apologize for your experience. I understand your anger. I got burned too. But that had nothing to do with the corporation and everything to do with my upline Pearl's own short-comings. Incidentally, I just got a mass Quixtar snail mail from this guy (whose now a Ruby-when you're doing something rotten, fruit falls off the tree). When I called the corporation to ask about it's legitimacy, they went ballistic and requested a FAX of the mailing immediately. This "Big Pin" is about to go on probation for rules violations.

Last year the Denver Broncos won the Super Bowl. Yet the team that finished with the worst record had the same opportunity. They had the same number of players and probably the same number of coaches. They started practice on the same day. It's still "football," but the champions are doing something different. They're teaching something different. People are being treated differently. I watched this business for 15 years, angry that traditional business could not duplicate the results that Amway produced. While working on my MBA I use to amaze my professors with ideas and concepts that I learned off the tapes a decade before. During this time I was often invited to meetings in such a hokey way I knew I was going to an Open. And it usually got worse from there. But when a fellow Navy pilot told me he was getting out to start an Amway Distributorship, I went along to point out all the things that could (and would) go wrong. Instead I found brutal honesty, no schmooze, no $1000 suits, and Rolexes to try and impress the crowd.

And if it was all so bad, why did you hang out there for 5 years!!! I recognized that my first upline was a sleaze bag within the first six months and we only got together a few times...

It's time to go shopping on Quixtar...again. The Bass Pro Shops site is calling my name...again. I think I'm addicted. It's a cult... They said it was a cult... Now I know.

Get a life

You say you don't recommend any MLMs but I only saw you trashing one. I'm curious why only Amway? What was your experience that caused you to spend so much negative energy doing this? My experience has been good. Not an overnight success - it is hard work but definitely worth doing. Who supports all of this negativity? Just curious...

Everybody should join Amway....and then quit immediately (Just to get it out of their system).....LOL

Not all mlm companies are as stated in your web-site. I would hope that you have investigated two of the best: Formor International & Changes International---------whose compensation plans are far superior. Unless you know differently? Let me know!!

Good evening,

I have a few comments regarding the information offered on your site regarding Quixtar.

First of all, I am an IBO. I have been for about three years now. I am associated with InterNet Associates (INA - formerly International Networking Association).

We first heard about Quixtar last October. At the time there was a lot of hype about "the largest internal mall ever", and "thousands of stores", etc. These rumors were primarily spread by diamonds and emeralds who thought they understood what was going on, but didn't. They made a mistake.

Starting December of last year the INA leadership began a vigorous campaign to stop the rumors and educate people about the true nature of the site.

In Amway's words, the site was to be a new "digital destination", not a "mall". The site would have Partner Stores that would offer PV/BV for products and services offered. That IBM and Microsoft were simply providing technology and development consulting services. And we were told that any rumors of any major existing e-commerce sites in partnership with the new venture were false and were to be discounted. Everyone in my Line of Sponsorship followed these guidelines.

Point #1: There are idiots in on every side of the issue.

The primary challenge with this type of business is that idiocy is universal. Through a lack of knowledge people will make promises and claims that are not true simply to get their business done. This is not what we have taught down through our organization. We firmly believe in honesty and integrity in business and I refuse to do business with anyone who does not show the same level of committment.

At no time has the Amway Corporation misrepresented itself in terms of what is was putting together: a new internet shopping site that would offer quality Amway Brand products, 900+ products from other manufacturers, personalized service, high speed internet access, and links to other "Partner Stores" who would agree to pay PV/BV for purchases made. This is what we've been hearing for months. This is what we've been telling people. This is how we've been building our business.

Point #2: It is true that every one of the partner sites has affiliate programs. It's even possible that Quixtar approached those sites for inclusion into the Partner Store program via their affiliate programs. It is important to note, however, that none of the affiliate programs for these other sites mention anything about and PV and BV. This is a unique offer for Quixtar. In other words, Quixtar is not just another IBM affiliate. Not just another Paul Fredericks Menstyle Affiliate. They have arranged a special deal with these sites.

Point #3: It is plainly obvious from the initial onslaught of activity on the Quixtars opening day that the site is going to be a huge success. I have heard several as yet unconfirmed estimates of over ten million hits between 12:01 AM and 12:00 PM Wednesday Sept 1. Even though the site wasn't up yet due to some last minute technical difficulties.

Being in the development industry myself, I am more than aware of what the site is capable of with their 50 compaq proliant servers and massive bandwidth. Even with the horsepower they have in place they're still getting bogged down. That is some massive activity for a new website.

Additionally, the fact that Broadcast.com hosted seven live webcasts in a row for an audience of over 500,000 people (the largest live event in Internet history, btw), proves that there is tremendous interest in whats going on here.

The point: your effort is pretty much futile. The site is going to succeed anyway. Those of us who realize that this is a business just like any other business and who have chosen to approach it with the appropriate ethical and moral principles will continue to reap the rewards.

Quite frankly, I could care less about who the partner sites are. I like the fact that I can get PV for my PaintBall stuff (via BassPro shops), I can get PV for that new laptop I've been wanting (via IBM), I can send my wife flowers and get PV, I can get PV for buying chocolate, etc. I can even have toilet paper automatically delivered to my doorstep every month so I don't have to go out and buy it all the time.

1. Yes Quixtar is closely tied to Amway. 2. Yes Quixtar sells Amway products. 3. Yes Quixtar sells products from hundreds of other Manufactures (via it's Store For More section) 4. Yes Quixtar has arranged special relationships with other e-commerce ventures on the net. 5. Yes Quixtar will be plagued by the same idiotic people that Amway was plagued with (people who build it improperly, people who quit and blame all of their social ills on the "system", people who judge the business without ever having really understood what it is, people who jump to conclusions and make things up to make it sound better. 6. No, Quixtar is CURRENTLY partnered with: a: Nordstrom b: MSN c: Amazon.com d: Barnes and Noble

Whoever has made these claims are fall under item number five above.

7. No, Quixtar is not the largest internet mall. Quixtar has never made a claim to be the largest internal mall.

8. Yes, Quixtar will be tremendously successful.

I have recently signed up to be an Amway Independent Business Owner--knowing that I can get a refund of the fees and expenses related to support materials I buy.

I am, perhaps, belatedly checking into Amway related information via the internet; and am seeking permission to obtain a copy of the 1998 article, Amway and Free Speech, that appears on your site. I found it very interesting reading, and would like a hard copy so that I can do further research into the issues addressed in the article.

I appreciate your response to this request.

Can someone give me their e-mail address? I have a few questions about Quixtar and I do not want my name revealed online!! Thanks.

You and everyone you're linked to obviously have and have never had any sense at all, if you let somebody talk you into poverty. Which by the way, I don't believe. Sure, there are bad people in every business. Although I don't have an Anti-Toyota site because I was ripped off by a salesman in Georgia. Face it, you all made adult decisions to attend everything you went to, and to buy everything you purchased. It seems to me that you and everyone else that has responded to your site has lottery mentality, and buying a tape was magically going to make you rich. the principles of success are universal. Basically, NO WORK=NO RESULTS. Take a hard look at what you're doing and what you're claiming. If you'll put your ego aside and honestly look into ANY venture that the DeVos and VanAndel I think even you could be presently surprised. Unless, of course, you're opposed to Christian morals and ethics, and find free enterprise revolting.

As a member of Tripod, and also Amway/Quixtar I can only tell you how sickened I am by your claims of objectivity and public service. Give me a list of your Tripod membership and I'll bet you a thousand dollars I could find some convicted fellons, probably a rapist or two in there too. Tell about all the good Amway/Quixtar does. How they teach you to be successful in both Amway/Quixtar, and in your personal life. Tell how they support you in time of cirsis. Tell about the difference it has made in my life when I lost my job last May. Tell about the charities that receive millions of dollars from Amway/Quixtar distributors. Tell about my wife's hard work to support Charities. Tell the people, these are good people who want nothing more than for the next person to become successful, because without continuing success, nobody is successful. Tell about the judge that said Amway/Quixtar is not a pyramid because the person below can make more than the person above, and very often does. Your motivation is clear. It makes me ashamed to be a member of Tripod.

I saw your link on the about.com page. I've witnessed the destructive affect Amway has on people but I never could put it in words. I often thought that if they spent that Amway time working any job they would end up with more money. Plus what they would save not buying tapes etc. I appreciate your site!

I was looking at your site, wondering if there was anything to help a relative of mine involved in Amway. However, one of the articles I read against amway had a few fallacious points to it, which I thought I might discuss.

I never found major fallacies in reasoning in any of my textbooks (I must admit at this point that I never took a philosophy class). If you have been in Amway for any length of time and have not discovered any fallacies, then I must say that you are not "plugged into" the System. Just guessing, but you probably would now (find fallacies), or at least you would find some if you looked very deeply. At least at the graduate level, there are a LOT of fallacies, and indeed, that is part of the point of graduate degrees is to be able to examine, test etc the accepted wisdom, choosing some and not others. For instance, a MAJOR fallacy of atheists, with its opposite found in Christians, is evolution. Atheists tend to believe evolution because it fits their world view, not because of evidence, while Christians do the opposite. Neither side usually looks at the evidence, and by that I mean REALLY looks at the evidence, not just hand waving. (For your info, I think that there are some insurmountable problems with evolution, but read Behe's book, "Darwin's Black Box" and do some research as he suggests - this is a well documented book.) And by evolution being a fallacy, I don't mean whether it is true or false, just that the unthinking acceptance or rejectance is the fallacy.

I was encouraged at every step of the way that I could succeed; however, this was supplemented by a firm grounding in intellectual reasoning, questioning in the search for knowledge, and an unwillingness to accept anything "on faith", especially "arrogant faith". Actually, almost everything is accepted on faith. Most of us don't have the time to go and run the experiments needed to confirm various theories, nor do we have the experience to confirm information such as definitions of words in a new language. That type of thing occurs in EVERY field. Look at history, most of history has very little to "prove" it, so we look at historians that have as many things that they've said confirmed in other ways, and decide that they are reliable. This is reasonable faith. It may or may not be arrogant. I've found profs who were arrogant, and profs who weren't. I think that what you had at Amway is "Unreasonable, arrogant faith", where you were asked to accept things that glaring flaws, not just flaws that you had to consider for a while before you understood them. Faith is very important as we can't live without it, but it can be manipulated as you have seen.

Having been trained as a scientist, I was taught that nothing is ever 100% certain, there is no such thing as a "proven fact" in the physical world (only in the idealized world of mathematics is there ever provability), and that progress was measured by the willingness to confront errors, correct them, and publicly disclose both so that all may benefit. This has been the legacy of mankind's educational development over the ages. However, this is the very antithesis of the System.

It would be nice to believe that mathematics is provable, but the very assertions underlying math ARE science (that is, something that has been observed over and over again, always happening the same way.) For instance, numbers. There are several numbering schemes (infinitely many actually), but in this universe, the Natural numbers seem to correspond to the way we see things. Also, in our experience, causality (if A then B) seems to make sense. One can imagine this not being true, and in fact we take it on faith that since it has always been that way for us, it always will in the future. Causality is a basis for math, however, and math is thus based on very basic physics, NOT the other way around, despite the fact that advanced physics is based on mathematics in addition to being based on the obervable universe.

Just ruminating,

I too was alerted to Quixtar (alias "countdown9199") back in early 1999. I was participating in a continuing education computer class when one of my classmates divulged her reason for taking the course. Seems her Mother was getting "involved" with an ecommerce company and was going to be her own IBO.

I was being treated for Depression and one of the reasons I was taking the course, I was hoping to establish some type of home-based business and try to restore my self-esteem. After inquiring further, boy did my ears perk up. I inquired for further information, and was given a contact for this business. Before I could make contact with this person, he contacted me.

I agreed to meet with him, and as you know, the next thing, I walk out with $180 worth of Amway products, motivation tapes and promises of how much I could earn per month by following their lead. Included in the kit (Amway) were invoices and hit the road. Not only, was I not shown how to price mdse., but just take my money and run. I was still in shock at my stupidity for several days. I kept saying to myself "I didn't want to sell Amway." I related this info to my friend in class (who by this time is my up-line). She just shrugged her shoulders when I mentioned that all I could see was Amway.

I attended one meeting and all I saw and heard was MLM (scary). Not only that, but my now upline sponsor kept harassing me for the names of 10 people. He was very rude to me at one time, when I told him I didn't know 10 people who were interested in selling Amway. He insisted that I was not to tell these folks what the ecommerce business was, he would talk with them. I was also harassed when I declined to attend out-of-state meetings (my husband's health prevented my being away from home). Next I was contacted and emailed numerous times by his upline. When I mentioned my upline's curtness about the 10 names, and stated that I hoped we did not have a personality conflict, he said when his upline asked "I just gave them my Christmas card list and let them go from there". I continued to decline their invitations.

For some reason, which after visiting this site, I now understand, I have not been contacted by anyone in over two months. Looks as if someone may have gotten a "slap on the wrist" for their strong-arm tactics and promises of wealth.

If these folks make millions, more power to them. I am $180 wiser for having been there!

Greetings!

I wrote this a couple of years ago after the 100 time that someone was "really excited about..." and wanted to meet me and my wife....

Top 10 reasons NOT to join Amway

10) Your idea of fun is not going with a huge crowd of people who are convincing themselves that they are "making it" AND having fun

9) You believe that spending time with your family is more important than spending your evenings and week-ends for years selling soap, convincing yourself that you'll soon be able to quit your 9-5 er.

8) You like to make friends and not consider everyone you meet as possible down-line

7) You enjoy spending time with people who have varied interest and not those fixated with a soap company

6) You like going to church and not have to listen to a sales pitch from a person referred to as a gemstone by your entire Sunday School class

5) The love of money is the root of all evil

4) No matter how many times they change the name it's still Amway

3) You like your friends and relatives too much to harass them about Amway

2) Dexter Yeager made millions because thousands of people have made hundreds

And the Number one reason is....

Jesus did NOT say go into all the world and make distributors

---

Read Previous E-Mail Comments

Read Next Comments

This page updated Sep-20-99